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External KeyPad Jumps into NumLock Mode since...

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V
Rank
I hear ya kitloud and clear.  Honestly, the program is fantastic!  I do a lot of searching (Google) and when I get a bunch of results - I go back to the search box and add, remove, refine the search.  Many times I position my cursor over a letter and just hit the DEL kit on my numeric keypad.   Boom - I get periods.  Sometimes I hit the HOME key - boom the number 7 comes up.  If I wasn't using the feature so much (apparently no one is) - it wouldn't be bad.  I did have to go in and allow programs (i.e., NotePad, Word, etc.) to bypass the ID protection so I wouldn't run into the same problem.  I am at the state that when the little icon pops over the WebRoot icon - I get depressed!:D
 
However, while it is a pain in the butt and I may threaten to pitch the entire program - when I get to the Uninstall screen - reality hit me in the face and I back out of the screen.:D
 
Thanks for your input kit - it really is appreciated.
T
Rank
Userlevel 5
Another thing to consider is what level you have set for HTTP websites under Identity Shield. If you have it set to higher than the default, which is at low, it may be worth moving it back to low and see if the issues persist at that level.
Kit
Userlevel 7
Even given all this, we're still working on it.  So don't lose all hope! :)
 
In the meantime, if all else fails, you can go watch any of our wonderful videos on our YouTube page.  (Though the fourth link there might get people looking at you funny if they overhear it.)
 
In more serious news, if you end up with any odd programs (like Notepad and any other non-browser) added to the list as Protect after today, we would like to know about it. Thanks!
Kit - Prior Webroot Quality Assurance / Prior Webroot Escalation Engineer
V
Rank
Thanks TonyW for the suggestion.  Actually, everything is set at default via the install process.

Thanks Kit for the information.   Right now  I have 3 programs in the "allow" column right now (NotePad Pro, Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel).   What I might do - is remove them, wait for the browser to kick in ID Protect, verify that I am having a problem in NotePad Pro, shut down the Browser - verify that the ID Protect is now closed and see if the problem goes away in NotePad Pro.  **bleep**, I got tired just thinking about doing all that!:D
 
Take care gang and hope you all had a Happy Easter.
O
Rank
Has this issue been fixed yet? I spent hours tracking down this problem to Webroot. I have been using the keypad for years without the num locks on and it is shocking to think Webroot takes over this without permission on purpose.
Kit
Userlevel 7
Trojans are generally things that intentionally do bad things.  I'd consider this more of a rare side effect, kind of like medication.  Otherwise Tylenol would be considered a "Trojan Drug" because I happen to have an adverse drug reaction to it and despite the fact that it's supposed to be helpful, if I take it I find out it harms me. 
 
It's one of those tricky situations.  The vast majority of people (and by that I mean literally in excess of 99.9%) default to Num Lock being turned on and never turn it off.  Many don't even know what Num Lock is.  For all of these folks, defaulting to Num Lock being on is a useful and appropriate thing.  We exposed an option for people to select for an entire build before we reverted it. Two weeks with that choice and we got over 70 calls from confused people.  So it was a fix for perhaps six, for example, and a "break" for 70.
 
That being said, we did just revise the manner in which the ID shield works and we have a different options set now as well as some additional functionality in other areas.  We can definitely take a look at options there again.  We can't always say that a given possibility will work and we sometimes have to point things out based on information we have, however we consider the community a very valuable source of ideas as well.  Despite the fact that nearly everybody at the company uses the software at home* for personal use, we can't say that any of us have an external keypad that we want to keep Num Lock off on, for example.
 
We'll see what options we have now with changes to Windows and recent changes to our UI.  As something that would be helpful, could you let us know what specific keypad you have?  If we are able to look at the details of the hardware and drivers, that may potentially give more options as well.
 
(* Only nearly everybody because some of us use Linux.)
Kit - Prior Webroot Quality Assurance / Prior Webroot Escalation Engineer
V
Rank
Kit - you request (could you let us know what specific keypad you have) really won't help.  My own experiences listed two different keyboards with the same result.   You own comments listed the reason - so, why you want to know the keyboard is suspect in my opinion...
 
Now your statement: I suspect that you have thrown it out because of a misimpression that we don't care.

My response:  Absolutely not the reason - I just can't live with the NumLock problem.  I manage a bunch of websites and use NotePad as the editor.  I am on the PC at least 3 to 4 hours a day - I can't afford to be dealing with the NumLock issue every few minutes
===========================
Your statement:   A lot of people would say that you threw out the baby with the bathwater.
 
My response:  Same as above - I can't afford to play the game.  I am also sure you aren't implying that all other (competitor) protection packages are sub-standard to WebRoot because it catches the NumLock issue?
===========================
 
In conclusion - it is just not acceptable for my usage requirement.  Therefore, I have assumed the risk and banking on the replacement program to cover as much as possible.  If WebRoot would have had that option (to ignore the problem) - I would still be using it..  One member suggested giving us the option to disable it - that would be great.
JimM
Userlevel 7
oahure, I have good news and better news.

Good News: I have just started a dialogue with our developers and product management regarding your suggestion, and I'll chime in here again when I hear back.

Better News: As it happens, Support has discovered a workaround for switching the default state to OFF instead of ON.  While it's not togglable yet, it's a start.  It involves a registry edit that Support can perform for you.  I'm going to set up a support case for you and handle yours personally.  If anyone else would like this fix applied, please open a support case and include the URL of this topic in the body of your message.
 
(vpnavy, I can work on this for you as well if you'd like?)
/// JimM /// /// Former Community Manager - Now Humble Internet Citizen/// /// Also Formerly a Technical Support Escalations Engineer ///
Kit
Userlevel 7
Kit - you request (could you let us know what specific keypad you have) really won't help.  My own experiences listed two different keyboards with the same result.   You own comments listed the reason - so, why you want to know the keyboard is suspect in my opinion...
 
Since the issue is with external third party keypads, knowing the keypad allows us to look at ways to detect it specifically and see if its drivers release Num Lock state information, or if we detect a third party keypad, expose options or change functionality based on that detection.  We need to look at things programmatically and look at it based on what a program can see and do.
 
I just can't live with the NumLock problem.  I manage a bunch of websites and use NotePad as the editor.  I am on the PC at least 3 to 4 hours a day - I can't afford to be dealing with the NumLock issue every few minutes.
 
Did you try simply turning off (disabling) the ID Shield or changing the processes under it from Protect to Allow?
The ID shield can be disabled completely, or the processes under it can be set to Allow instead of Protect, which leaves some ID shield functionality but disables the keyboard filter that would normally be active when those processes are open.  Since the keyboard filter is what locks the Num Lock to a specific state, disabling that should resolve the issue for you completely.
 
As both Jim and I pointed out, we are able to revisit this now that certain things in Windows have changed and changes have been made to the infrastructure of various frameworks.  Therefore, we are revisiting it and trying to find a solution that may not have been possible when this was originally brought up.  Technology is always advancing and Microsoft updates can expose APIs and data that didn't get stored anywhere useful before.  We still will never make a change that will negatively impact the security of the majority though, which is why details on the specific situation allows us to tailor a solution that will benefit you without hurting others.
Kit - Prior Webroot Quality Assurance / Prior Webroot Escalation Engineer
V
Rank
Kit:   Did you try simply turning off (disabling) the ID Shield or changing the processes under it from Protect to Allow?
The ID shield can be disabled completely, or the processes under it can be set to Allow instead of Protect, which leaves some ID shield functionality but disables the keyboard filter that would normally be active when those processes are open.  Since the keyboard filter is what locks the Num Lock to a specific state, disabling that should resolve the issue for you completely.
 
I remember going the Protect/Allow - it did nothing.
 
Kit:  Since the issue is with external third party keypads, knowing the keypad allows us to look at ways to detect it specifically and see if its drivers release Num Lock state information, or if we detect a third party keypad, expose options or change functionality based on that detection.  We need to look at things programmatically and look at it based on what a program can see and do.
 
Understood.
V
Rank
JimM:  Better News: As it happens, Support has discovered a workaround for switching the default state to OFF instead of ON.  While it's not togglable yet, it's a start.  It involves a registry edit that Support can perform for you.  I'm going to set up a support case for you and handle yours personally.  If anyone else would like this fix applied, please open a support caseand include the URL of this topic in the body of your message.   (vpnavy, I can work on this for you as well if you'd like?)
 
Super news and thanks for the offer JimM.  However, right now - I no longer have WebRoot running so it won't be necessary.  Again, thanks for the offer.
O
Rank
I have the Microsoft 4000 keyboard and no external keypad.
 
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/p/natural-ergonomic-keyboard-4000/B2M-00012
 
I agree with you, this is not a Trojan.  I just pointed out that it has some similar characteristics in that it is a program I downloaded and paid for to help me and in my situation it did some harm.
 
I am not sure where you got your 99.9% stat, but Wikipedia seems to say the opposite. 
 
They say "Since most modern desktop computers have a full-size keyboard with both a numeric pad and separate arrow keys, Num Lock is rarely used for its original purpose, and ends up confusing the user if it has for some reason been activated without the user being aware of this. This can be more of an issue on most https:///wiki/Laptop_computers, since activating the Num Lock function typically requires use of the https:///wiki/Fn_key and if a user accidentally switches it on they may have no idea how to switch it off. If a full-size keyboard is plugged into a laptop, then the Num Lock function is normally off, and the user would have to activate the Num Lock function to use the numeric keypad for numeric entry."
O
Rank
Thanks JimM, I will wait to hear from someone to update my registry accordingly.  Right now I continue to run Webroot but have the Identity Shield off to avoid the issue.
Kit
Userlevel 7
The Wikipedia article agrees.  Laptops without dedicated numeric keypads default to off, desktops default to on. 
 
When using a full sized desktop keyboard, the numeric keypad is used by most people to type numbers, not to press "up, down, left, right, home, end, page up, page down", etc.  There are already keys for all the arrows and home/end and such, so why have the numeric keypad do the same thing as those dedicated keys?  So Num Lock is on by default and pressing the "9" key on the numeric keypad types a nine instead of going up a page.
 
That is why we set it to On on desktops and Off if we detect a laptop.  There is also supportive evidence in the point that out of millions of users and thousands of people reading these forums, only two have expressed a problem with it. :)
 
Work with the support ticket to change the default, or disable ID shield, or set to Allow instead of Protect.  Many solutions, so you get to choose which one works best for you.
Kit - Prior Webroot Quality Assurance / Prior Webroot Escalation Engineer
O
Rank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Num_lock
 
I disagree, Wikipedia says "Num Lock is rarely used for its original purpose, and ends up confusing the user if it has for some reason been activated without the user being aware of this".
 
To me this is exactly what is happening, Webroot activated it without the user being aware.  I beleive this sentence states that it is rarely used, another words, it is normally off.  They are then saying when it is turned on for some reason people become confused as their keyboard works differently.
JimM
Userlevel 7
I think we can all agree that some people prefer it on, and some people prefer it off.  And other people prefer turning it on and off.  There are probably a lot of people in all of those groups, no matter what the percentages are.  Oahure has a good feature request (or defect observation, depending on how you look at it), and we've brought this up with product management for review.
 
In the short term, we've got a workaround available through Support now, within 24 hours of this thread being dredged up from it's 8-month-long slumber (and 24 hours turnaround time with a fix is pretty good I'd say).
 
So, in the holiday spirit and to celebrate having some success with this issue, I would like to offer everyone this picture of eggnog:
 


 
:cattongue:
 
I'll follow up again when we hear back from product management (or product management may even chime in here as well).  Please be mindful the holidays are nearly upon us, so the workaround may need to suffice for a bit.

(Oahure, your support case is awaiting a reply, and Vpnavy, please let me know if you change your mind, and I'll be happy to help.)
/// JimM /// /// Former Community Manager - Now Humble Internet Citizen/// /// Also Formerly a Technical Support Escalations Engineer ///
J
Rank
>Since Windows doesn't say what the Num Lock state is reliably, we have to make an educated guess. 
 
You don't have to make an educated guess. Put a "num lock" checkbox in your software.
 
Jay
Kit
Userlevel 7
Hi Jay,
 
We exposed an option for people to select for an entire build before we reverted it. Two weeks with that choice and we got over 70 calls from confused people.  So it was a fix for perhaps six, for example, and a "break" for 70.
 
That being said, we did just revise the manner in which the ID shield works and we have a different options set now as well as some additional functionality in other areas.  We can definitely take a look at options there again.
 
We'll see what options we have now with changes to Windows and recent changes to our UI.
Kit - Prior Webroot Quality Assurance / Prior Webroot Escalation Engineer
O
Rank
Hi Kit,
 
You mentioned you revised the manner in which Identity Shield works.
 
Does this mean I can enable it again without the Num Lock issue?
Kit
Userlevel 7
@ wrote:
Hi Kit,
 
You mentioned you revised the manner in which Identity Shield works.
 
Does this mean I can enable it again without the Num Lock issue?
Kind of.  The change to the ID shield is a revision of how it works and where it works: On all web pages, not just secure ones.
 
I found out that we just added a non-exposed setting for whether the Num Lock should be On or Off when the ID shield is active.  Support can provide a registry entry for that. 
 
The Num Lock being stuck one direction or the other is a problem with Windows' reporting of the Num Lock and third party keyboard driver issues.  That may never be fixed by Microsoft or the third party people. 
Kit - Prior Webroot Quality Assurance / Prior Webroot Escalation Engineer
O
Rank
OK, I will wait for support to let me know how to do the registry entry so I can enable ID Shield again, thanks.
J
Rank
 >We'll see what options we have now with changes to Windows and recent changes to our UI.
 
Thanks!  Let me know how to set the numlock one way or the other. I don't switch it back and forth. I can patch the registry if necessary.
 
Jay
Kit
Userlevel 7
@ wrote:
 >We'll see what options we have now with changes to Windows and recent changes to our UI.
 
Thanks!  Let me know how to set the numlock one way or the other. I don't switch it back and forth. I can patch the registry if necessary.
 
Jay
Just open a support ticket and the direct support team will be able to provide that information.
Kit - Prior Webroot Quality Assurance / Prior Webroot Escalation Engineer
O
Rank
That worked great, thanks.  It is nice to be fully protected again.
H
Thank you for this fix -- it did the job. Now I have a new problem: My numeric keypad is inop, regardless of the condition of the NumLock key. I don't use the numeric keypad very often, but I'd like to have it when I need it. Can help me get it working again?

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